USS Tamerlane

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:52 pm 
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mdbruffy wrote:



Thing is, VE that in order to build a good foundation for stories, sometimes you need those "references". I wouldn't be able to do "A Tale of Two Captains" without doing the stories that came before it. There'd be too many questions left unanswered about how the characters got to that point if I didn't.


That's not what I meant, Madison. What I meant is the tendency in almost all Trek fan-fiction - and even the Vangard novels are badly guilty of this - to include minor characters or ships or planets from the show, just to get people going "ooh, I remember that from the show!" An easy example in your plans is the Romulan commander from "Enterprise Incident." There must be at the very least dozens of starship captains in the Romulan Fleet, so why does that particular one crop up all the time? Why not create your own new character and avoid having fans preconceptions conflict with your story?

Nova Trek does get a bit more slack from me, because it's entire concept is "What if James Kirk was a woman?" Yes, yes, I know that in your story Jimmy boy had existed, but he serves the same role as Sam Kirk did in the original series - to die off-camera and make us care about the lead's angst a little more. So because much of what you're doing is retelling TOS with a female lead, it doesn't bug me as much as such things do in other cases. Like the Vangard novels, for example, which are chock full of "oh, let us explain why the episode was like that" moments. Which doesn't mean it gets a complete bye, but it does get some slack.

Used sparingly, such moments help tie a secondary work into the main canon. Used consistently, they just suggest a lack of confidence on the part of the author - it suggests they keep making referential stories because they don't think they can write good ones.

And I feel that the Daedalus class ship in the Vangard setting is, by itself, a quaint little anachronism - but if everyone else started making the CoE starships all be 100 year old antiques, that would spoil its uniqueness and make the other stories entirely too derivative. Star Trek is a big sandbox; there's lots of room for use to go play in it without having to encounter anything seen in the shows. With MJ still in the planning stages, I wanted to get that opinion registered early, so he could give it due consideration. If you do find a Daedalus to use, MJ, do something more interesting with it than have it be a CoE ship. An old Fleet ship surplussed into civilian hands; or a long abandoned wreck; or an old explorer seized by aliens who wouldn't have warp drive without it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:56 pm 
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There is a level where touchstoning/references do make a story more interesting, for example, the Enterprise's appearance in the first Vanguard novel helped set up the plot of that series, but yeah, don't over use them. An example of a touchstone too far, from the same book, was when Scotty got the green drink from Ganz, firstly, he was supposed to get it from Ganymede, but mainly it had no real bearing on the story, since IIRC, we'd already been introduced to Ganz and the Omari-Ekon earlier in the story. You can have an SCE crew on a Daedalus in your story, but there'd better be a good reason for it.

BTW, the Lovell wasn't just from Vanguard, it first appeared in an SCE prequel book.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:26 pm 
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Vagabond Elf wrote:
While seeing an in-scale Daedalus (not Deadalus) would be awesome, I never got the impression that most of their ships are archaic relics held together with bubblegum and bailing wire - just the one out near Vangard. And to be honest, taking a detail that was a neat quirk of the one story and echoing it feels to me like it's some of that "look look look at my reference" stuff Guy was talking about in Ken & Madison's threads - you're better off without it.


To be honest, the only reason I considered putting a Daedalus class ship into the story was because I thought I had read somewhere that the S.C.E. had brought three ships out of mothballs, and I thought it would be cool to run across another one of these relics from a time long past. But after reading your comments, and doing some further research on the subject I stand corrected. Apparently Starfleet only gave one Daedalus class ship to the S.C.E., and that was the U.S.S. Lovell. So that idea is into the trash bin.

Vagabond Elf wrote:
For that matter, I've never figured the Corps had dedicated starships in the first place, any more than Seebees have dedicated cruisers. They just hitch a ride on whatever's handy. But that's a detail I can accept as being your vision, without it seeming trite.


Now this I actually disagree on. I think for some specific missions the S.C.E. might hitch a ride on a faster ship, or a ship with mission specific equipment, but for the most part the S.C.E. needs their own ships. I mean honestly, you can't take ships for exploration or combat away from their missions to carry tons of equipment and building materials to colonies , star base's , or space station locations, and then have them sit there for months while the Corp Of Engineers does their job. No, you give the S.C.E. their own ships, Ptolemy Class for heavy equipment and building materials, Daedalus or Constitution class (very unlikely they would give up a heavy hitter like a Connie, but you never know) for longer range missions or missions with a longer duration at the building or project site, and finally Hermes & Saladin class for the smaller missions and R&D. Remember, this isn't like the U.S. Army Corps Of Engineers of today where a ship drops off equipment to a warzone, then leaves them there to dig in for their project, this is the 23rd century where the Corp Of Engineers is working on far off planets or in deep space, and needs starship support.

Vagabond Elf wrote:
And I feel that the Daedalus class ship in the Vangard setting is, by itself, a quaint little anachronism - but if everyone else started making the CoE starships all be 100 year old antiques, that would spoil its uniqueness and make the other stories entirely too derivative. Star Trek is a big sandbox; there's lots of room for use to go play in it without having to encounter anything seen in the shows. With MJ still in the planning stages, I wanted to get that opinion registered early, so he could give it due consideration. If you do find a Daedalus to use, MJ, do something more interesting with it than have it be a CoE ship. An old Fleet ship surplussed into civilian hands; or a long abandoned wreck; or an old explorer seized by aliens who wouldn't have warp drive without it.


I agree completely that the Star Trek Universe is a big sandbox, and that I should think outside the box when creating my story. And if I do find a 1/1000 Daedalus Class ship I may very well take your suggestions on the subject. As for finding ships though, I would love to find a 1/1000 Oberth or 1/1000 Reliant for when my story reaches TWOK era. I always pictured the S.C.E. using Oberth class ships in TWOK timeframe. But for my crew, it will be a Hermes refit...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Macross-Junkie wrote:
Now this I actually disagree on. I think for some specific missions the S.C.E. might hitch a ride on a faster ship, or a ship with mission specific equipment, but for the most part the S.C.E. needs their own ships. I mean honestly, you can't take ships for exploration or combat away from their missions to carry tons of equipment and building materials to colonies , star base's , or space station locations, and then have them sit there for months while the Corp Of Engineers does their job. No, you give the S.C.E. their own ships, Ptolemy Class for heavy equipment and building materials, Daedalus or Constitution class (very unlikely they would give up a heavy hitter like a Connie, but you never know) for longer range missions or missions with a longer duration at the building or project site, and finally Hermes & Saladin class for the smaller missions and R&D. Remember, this isn't like the U.S. Army Corps Of Engineers of today where a ship drops off equipment to a warzone, then leaves them there to dig in for their project, this is the 23rd century where the Corp Of Engineers is working on far off planets or in deep space, and needs starship support.



And that is a very defensible position. It's not one I'd take, but it's logical enough that I can enjoy the story.

Another thought might be that there is an "engineers pod" for a tug. Similar to the starliner passenger pods one sees in the SFTM, which are fully functional impulse-only ships (there is of course the great debate about whether or not impulse is capable of superluminal speeds) that dock with the tugs for warp transport. Long-term projects might have one of these assigned to it - the tug would bring it by, then drop it off and carry on with other business, thus avoiding keeping a valuable starship sitting around doing nothing.

One could also make a case for a modified lollipop (I'm not sure it would still be a Hermes, I think you'd make enough changes to the onboard fit to make it into something else) as a dedicated CoE ship for the quick-response stuff, the things where they have to get there now, but won't be staying for long. (It is generally accepted that the biggest difference between a light combatant and a cruiser is cruising enduarance; a lollipop just can't hang in orbit for nearly as long as a larger ship. That's also frequently the difference between a destroyer and a frigate, too - firgates are slow but long-endurance, destroyers are fast but short-legged.)

Anyway, now I'm just speculating on an intruiging idea. So I guess you've convinced me!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Macross-Junkie wrote:
Vagabond Elf wrote:
While seeing an in-scale Daedalus (not Deadalus) would be awesome, I never got the impression that most of their ships are archaic relics held together with bubblegum and bailing wire - just the one out near Vangard. And to be honest, taking a detail that was a neat quirk of the one story and echoing it feels to me like it's some of that "look look look at my reference" stuff Guy was talking about in Ken & Madison's threads - you're better off without it.


To be honest, the only reason I considered putting a Daedalus class ship into the story was because I thought I had read somewhere that the S.C.E. had brought three ships out of mothballs, and I thought it would be cool to run across another one of these relics from a time long past. But after reading your comments, and doing some further research on the subject I stand corrected. Apparently Starfleet only gave one Daedalus class ship to the S.C.E., and that was the U.S.S. Lovell. So that idea is into the trash bin.


actually they did pull three ships out of mothballs.

we just don't know the identity of the other two ships, nor how long they served.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Yeah, yeah, I know you've all heard it before, but I haven't given up on this project yet. I've just had my attention drawn in other directions for quite some time, and I still can't bring myself to settle on a story idea (I keep changing things). As I stated before I have the models for the bridge of the Pegasus in both TOS and TMP era's. I've only gotten around to doing minor work on the Hermes class bridge, and I haven't even gotten around to being brave enough to punch out bridge from the punch out book from the 70's (I mean it is vintage). But for the sake of argument, I thought I'd decide to let you see what they look like built, because it seems I'm not the only one with this crazy idea to use Minimates. I found these photos on the MinimateMultiverse, another forum I frequent. So let's begin...

The first three photo's are a completed bridge using the figures that come with the model kit. The controls and monitor screen decals DO NOT look this good on the actual kit. The controls and monitors on the completed kit are specially designed decals that are backlit that you can buy off eBay. I'll show you what the decals look like on more photos after these...

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The next group of photos are of the bridge manned by Minimates and one of the bridge alone. These photo's contain what the control and monitor decals look like in the kit...

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The final photo is of the card board pop out TMP bridge. It's the same scale as the AMT model, just made of cardboard...

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Now on to my next change in plans. Originally I was planning on using models from AMT and Polar Lights to make the Hermes Scout, and the Shuttlecraft I would be using, but now my plans have changed (which means I may be selling some models and Saladin / Hermes conversion kits in the near future for anyone interested). It seems that Art Asylum (the makers of Minimates) are coming out with some vehicles, and with a little bit of hack and slash, and some Frankensteining I should be able to modify these vehicles for my story. I know they're not in scale, and super deformed, but I just like them a lot better for my story. Even though my story is going to have an air of seriousness, I still want to keep it light, and I think this is the perfect way. Let me introduce the the Minimates Shuttlecraft and Connie / Enterprise...

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Now the Connie doesn't come out till December, and the Shuttlecraft isn't due out until first quarter 2013 (hopefully it doesn't get cancelled because of bad sales on the Enterprise), but that should give me plenty of time to finish my TOS bridge, get my story down pat, and get my custom figures built and painted (the few that actually need paint).

So I just wanted to let everyone know I haven't given up, and also get any feedback that anyone cares to share...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:20 pm 
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I think it will be a fun series! The models look very good. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:12 am 
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Yay photocomics!

I'd focus on TOS for now, and avoid the worry about punching the TMP book out until you know whether you enjoy the physical parts of making the story. If it turns out you hate it, you'll still have your vintage book intact. If you love it, then you won't worry about the book so much.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:31 pm 
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You could probably have all the parts printed onto polystyrene sheets, that would save the book and make the model more durable.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:02 am 
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Yeah, just scan the pages into a computer and print out new pages onto durable cardboard or something.

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"Alternate starship designs are from the Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph (c) 1975 and are used with permission."
The Starship Saladin is now on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/StarshipSaladin


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