USS Tamerlane

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:37 pm 
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Artist: Surya
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So, I'd totally forgotten that I'm supposed to start a separate thread for discussion! :D

Anyway, while I'm here, a couple of works-in-progress that I'd appreciate some feedback on.

First, a "boarding shuttle"

Image
Image

This is a massive frankenstein, but I really needed a shuttle that looked TOS-ish but had a nice big door for rapid deployment. The idea is this is used to put a boarding party aboard a ship that isn't completely friendly; by denying the boardees the chance to pick them off one at a time, it sharply reduces the chances of resistance. It can also be used to insert into truly hostile environments, of course, but that's not something Star Fleet Security does as a matter of course, and the Marines have their own ships.

The big door is also useful for cargo handling and medical purposes, meaning this basic spaceframe also has a light cargo variant and a medevac variant.

Anyway... I'm mostly happy with it, although the interior is completely unsuited to my needs, so I may junk it and rebuild, or just go with Rduda's version of the Type F. My biggest worry is: does it look TOS? Or transitional, from TOS to movies? That'd do too.

Next, the head of security in his field jacket and boarding armour:

Image

This I'm quite pleased with, and present mostly for context. I think it does a good job of being a TOS-ified/transitional-era look for the security armour seen in the movies.

A shuttle pilot in her field jacket, sans armour:

Image

And that brings me to my current dilema: should the shuttle pilot have armour? With the ramp down, the shuttle interior is fairly exposed. Having the small craft pilot wear armour during a boarding action makes a certain amount of sense, even if she's branched Command, not Ops. But that raises the question: should her armour be gold, suggesting it's permanently hers, or red, suggesting it's been borrowed from Security? I can't decide.

Here's a quick-and-dirty with the red armour. Gold armour requires retexturing work, so I don't have a pic as yet:

Image


Any opinions?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:24 pm 
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Author: Saladin
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First, the shuttle. While I like the design itself, there's something really weird looking about the nacelles. I would suggest toning down the segmented plating as it makes it look like it's a bunch of cones stacked together, like this: >>>>

Visually, it hurts my eyes on the nacelles. Tone it down and it will be fine. The ship design is fine. :)

I like your armor for your crew. Looks very TMP in styling, and makes for a nice transitional armor. Keep it up! :)

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Ray Martin is the Captain of the U.S.S. Saladin, in the latter half of the 23rd Century.
"Alternate starship designs are from the Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph (c) 1975 and are used with permission."
The Starship Saladin is now on Facebook:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:20 pm 
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Artist: Surya
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The nacelles are modeled like that, I think. Remember, I'm just a collage artist! :) At any rate, it annoys me too, but I couldn't make it go away.

I should apply the filter to the test pic and see what happens... Hmm. Un momment, si vous plais!

Okay, with the filter it's not so bad:

Image

As for the armour - I'm glad you like it, but I really was hoping for opinions on whether the shuttle pilot should have her own gold armour or just be borrowing Security red.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:10 pm 
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Author: Saladin
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I think that the pilot should be wearing military green along with the security officer, like MACO's, personally. I know that before you didn't want to use MACO's, but you're almost to that point, so what's one more minor step in that direction?

Speaking of assault shuttles, check out mine:

The Scimitar

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0625_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 2188_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 9305_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 8445_o.jpg

The Sabre

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 2055_o.jpg

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 1427_o.jpg

And my search and rescue shuttle, the Crusader

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 5810_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0017_o.jpg

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Ray Martin is the Captain of the U.S.S. Saladin, in the latter half of the 23rd Century.
"Alternate starship designs are from the Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph (c) 1975 and are used with permission."
The Starship Saladin is now on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/StarshipSaladin


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:27 pm 
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Artist: Surya
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Location: Edmonton, AB
If you use IMGWH : number : number, you can resize the images. (Instead of IMG). Those are breaking the thread.

MACOs are not part of the United Star Fleet. They're an Earth military unit. Most likely, by Stardate 5400, they don't even exist any more. While I do postulate the existence of Federation Marines, they are not really part of Star Fleet either, and in any case these are not Marines. They're Security. That is, cops. Who normally use the transporter, so when then need a shuttle, they borrow a pilot from Flight Ops. Which is the department that owns the shuttles. And is branched Command. So they wear gold.

If you don't have an opinion that falls within the bounds of the question, that's fine; but suggesting things that have nothing to do with the question at hand isn't helpful, either...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:30 pm 
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Author: Saladin
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Sorry about the width issue. I tried using the IMGWH : number : number but I guess I'm still not doing it correctly.

Anyhow, regardless of our differing opinions on MACO's, I would suggest making the armor standardized and not to match the tunic. I don't think that's necessary. In fact, I'd suggest making it brown and/or black to match the TMP armor if you're going to use it. I like it, I think it's a good idea. I think they went for neutral colors for a good reason, not just to make it work for security, but to reduce the saturation of red that cost many officers their lives.

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Ray Martin is the Captain of the U.S.S. Saladin, in the latter half of the 23rd Century.
"Alternate starship designs are from the Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph (c) 1975 and are used with permission."
The Starship Saladin is now on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/StarshipSaladin


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:32 pm 
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Author: Saladin
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By the way, is that a photoshop filter you are using or something from poser? Or something else? :)

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Ray Martin is the Captain of the U.S.S. Saladin, in the latter half of the 23rd Century.
"Alternate starship designs are from the Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph (c) 1975 and are used with permission."
The Starship Saladin is now on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/StarshipSaladin


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:43 pm 
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Artist: Surya
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As to the shuttles:

Those are not useful as assault shuttles. In a military context, the word "Assault" means "delivering infantry into a combat zone." The most dangerous part of that mission is when the infantry is debussing, so assault vehicles always have really big doors so they can get out quick. Sabre and Scimitar there are just standard Class F shuttles in MACO livery. Troops trying to unass from those birds would get roadblocked in the doorway and die.

So, let's consider them as simple untility shuttles owned by the MACOs. Leaving aside the question of why shuttles owned by the MACOs would be on a destroyer (which is the same as deploying a USMC Helo aboard a USN destroyer - it doesn't happen, ever) instead of being confined to MACO transports and assault ships (and probably a few on the starbases), the colour scheme is schitzophrenic. You've got a low-visibility base coat, mixed with high-visiblity markings. I suppose it's possible that a more-balls-than-brains type officer might order such a scheme, but everyone else would look at him and wonder what he was compensating for.

Ships used in non-combat situations would have the markings you give them with a plain grey hull colour. Ships used in combat situations where visual camouflage mattered would use low-visibility markings - usually a grey, green or brown slightly darker than the underlying paint. The camouflage scheme itself would vary by theatre. You've got a Soviet Air Force air-to-air scheme going on there, which is pretty pointless (anything that has to close to visual range on that shuttle will just die), but the basic colours could be defended as relevant in a usually overcast, snowy or maritime environment. However, that camou pattern will change from theatre to theatre - if not mission to mission. Because the only time it's any use is when the ship is sitting on the ground, so it has to be camou that works with the ground it expects to sit on. (An active shuttle will be easily tracked with sensors for most of the opponents it cares about.)

So, yeah. In summary: Not an assault shuttle, and the mix of high-viz and low-viz looks silly. Pick one or the other.

As for the SAR shuttle: a destroyer is even less likely to be carrying a dedicated SAR vehicle, since hangar space will always be at a premium and the regular shuttles are probably sufficient for a SAR role in the unlikely event that the ship's main sensors can't do the searching from orbit (Trek Sensors and Transporters make SAR missions pretty uncommon, so dedicating an entire shuttle to that on a small ship is serious misuse of resources, and whoever authorised it should be smacked upside the head). But let's assume there is one.

SAR aircraft are painted in very visible colour schemes, usually variations on red and yellow, to make it easy for whoever they're trying to find and rescue to spot them. Very frequently, the rescuees see the aircraft before the aircraft sees them. SAR aircraft also tend to have very large doors, to facilitate moving stretchers and injured people through - but SAR craft are frequently repurposed, so that's less of an issue. Finally, while a SAR ship will almost certanly carry medically trained personnel - the equivalent of EMTs - they won't belong to a medical department. Search-and-Rescue is a fairly specialised field, and they'll belong to their own department. So the cross is out of place. Fianlly, SAR aircraft, if capable of hovering, will almost always have a hoist or winch. Granted, we don't know that a Class F shuttle can hover - but I'd assume so, as it's not aerodynamic in the slightest.

If you intended Crusader (which is a silly name for a rescue ship, in my opinion, when you have Hospitaler or Lazarene to draw on) to be more of a medical transport than a proper SAR vessel, the cross and the colours work, but you run into the same problem with the small doors, and the improbability of a destroyer having a dedicated shuttle for the role. And of course the name on the side should probably just be "U.S.S. Saladin."

This is blunt, I admit, but you asked for feedback and last time I was here, this forum opted for blunt-but-honest.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:45 pm 
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Artist: Surya
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It's a photoshop filter - Lithogrpah, from Xenomark. If you google her, you'll find her site.

I'm keeping the red because this is, again, COPS. They're supposed to be highly visible. The marines are the ones with low-vis uniforms, and probably heavier armour too. But thank you for the vote on whether there should also be gold armour. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Author: Saladin
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I appreciate your candor on the shuttles. It is a good point about the landing craft door, but these aren't really D-Day type vehicles, they're adapted standard shuttles with minimal combat capability. Given the advanced nature of sensors, camo may have no value, other than painting on the hull markings like shark jaws, etc. on WWII craft. But at least it's not a red stripe on a silver ship.

Either way, I'm gonna stick with it. But thanks for the insights.

Ken

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Ray Martin is the Captain of the U.S.S. Saladin, in the latter half of the 23rd Century.
"Alternate starship designs are from the Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph (c) 1975 and are used with permission."
The Starship Saladin is now on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/StarshipSaladin


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